Audubon Starr Ranch Web Cams

01/18/25 4:00 PM PST I’m sorry that the Cavity cam is down, though have to say that recently there have been various (and random) errors that have been difficult to troubleshoot. So I’m trying to sort them all out. Among other things I’m working with Jorge on this. He’s a SUPER wiz at so much of this stuff so I’m confident that he’ll be able to zero in on the probs. Thanks. Pete

01/15/25 4:00 PM PST I just went through some weird issues to try to get the Cavity and Bat cams back up. Certain things said they weren’t working and certain things said they were. And I was getting inconsistent views on different browsers. Like Firefox at first wouldn’t show the Limb cam, and then later it did. But in the meantime Chrome showed it. And at first Firefox only showed the Limb cam but now shows all the cams. And now Chrome only shows the Limb cam. Auuugghhhh!!!! Anyway, I’m glad at least 3 of the 4 cams are back up. Next step is to config a new Trail cam and get it mounted and running. Never a dull moment… Pete

01/13/25 11:00 AM PST Update.  So far we haven’t lost power again, but the winds are still gusting strongly so who knows? And NOAA still shows a red flag alert through Wednesday.  Any case, I’m waiting until things die down before I start trying to troubleshoot and fix the entire setup of cams. In the meantime I see that the limb cam is working again, but I have no clue as to why.  I didn’t change it and after the last several power outages it didn’t come back on.  I also thought it was one of my Nest cams that Google stopped supporting and that I had to replace.  Go figure…  Pete

01/11/25 8:30 PM PST Our power came back on yesterday afternoon, but it may be turned off again soon due to renewed high winds (though right now not too bad). So given how much goes in to restarting the two working cams every time we lose power and all the other stuff like firing up generators, keeping our frig’s and telecomm going, etc. I’m gonna wait until this blows over – excuse the pun – to try to get us back to “normal”.

Sigh, never a dull moment… Thanks, Pete

01/08/25 Due to some really high Santa Ana winds yesterday and through the night our power was shut off for safety reasons this morning, ironically right when the winds died down… Any case the 2 working cams are currently down and it may take me a bit to get them back up because I’m also trying to trouble shoot various network problems that are frustratingly inconsistent – i.e. some hardware is affected and some isn’t.  I’m also going to try to focus on getting the other cams back up. So thanks for your patience and stay tuned. Pete

10/31/24 As some of you may know, last September the “Airport Fire” in southern Orange County burned 23,000+ acres immediately adjacent to Starr Ranch.  While none of Starr Ranch burned, acres and acres of pristine coastal sage scrub and native grasslands on Starr Ranch were bulldozed in an effort to keep the fire from getting to neighboring Dove Canyon and Coto de Caza communities should it have advanced in that direction. Needless to say, we were heartbroken.

Over the last almost 30 years Sandy has worked incredibly hard to successfully protect and restore a lot of this now bulldozed habitat using tens of thousands of hard raised funds.  Now the work must start over again.  Sandy has already been trying to line up researchers to monitor and help restore these devastated sites.  The link below will take you to a page that tells more about what happened and allow you to donate to help with Sandy’s efforts should you desire to. (The text of the link may look odd, but it’s legit.)

https://audubon.stagecoachdigital.com/web-view/1683434

On a separate note, Jorge and I are working together to try to get a new BNOW cavity cam in place before next breeding season as well as get the two cams that have been down for a long time restored.

Thanks, Pete

06/10/24 From Emma:
Starr Ranch Eggs 2024
Egg #1 – 4/22/24 – 8:30 am / Hatch 5/27/24 – 1:06 am
Egg #2 – 4/24/24 – 8:30 am / Hatch 5/29/24 – 12:20 am
Egg #3 – 4/26/24 – 9:39 am / Hatch 5/31/24 – 3:44 am
Egg #4 – 4/28/24 – 11:44 am / Hatch 6/2/24 – 2:04 am
Egg #5 – 4/30/24 – 3:21 pm
Egg #6 – 5/3/24 – 2:25 am

06/09/24 A follow up to what’s directly below. I tried something and it worked.  Cavity cam should be up again and visible in Firefox and Chrome. Pete

06/09/24 Hi Folks. Our internet went out and when I got it restarted I had to recreate and update in Word Press a new URL for the cavity feed. Well, in Firefox you now get an error in that video window but if you scroll down in it you can open the feed in a separate window and seems to work fine. Though right now the cavity feed doesn’t work at all in Chrome. I’ve contacted Jorge and asked him to fix this, but in the meantime this is all I can do. Sorry for the hassle. Pete

05/10/24 Emma asked me to post the egg dates so here ya go:
Egg #1 – 4/22/24 – 8:30 am
Egg #2 – 4/24/24 – 8:30 am
Egg #3 – 4/26/24 – 9:39 am
Egg #4 – 4/28/24 – 11:44 am
Egg #5 – 4/30/24 – 3:21 pm
Egg #6 – 5/3/24 – 2:25 am
And thanks to all who sent, or will send, an “Egg Pledge” donation! Very much appreciated. Pete

04/15/24 Well, the Cavity Cam is finally back up and I was also able to get the Bat Cam to display. Though the Nest Cams (formerly know as Drop Cams) on the Trail and Limb are still not functioning. Google bought Nest Cams a while ago and I recently learned that they no longer would support the earlier Drop Cams, which happens to be the one on the Trail. So I will get a new one for it. As for the Limb Cam, I have to troubleshoot it some more. It’s a really simple set up yet I yet to be able to pinpoint the problem. Thanks, Pete

04/07/24 Thanks to an email from Emma today it spurred me to go up to the cavity this evening to see what was going on. A week or so ago the OC Bee Keeper Association folks (who were REALLY great) were here and removed the abandoned combs. But I thought they said there were some other active combs behind those and they’d have to come back. So I was waiting on them.

But I decided to go up there anyway to check things out after Emma’s email.  Well, before I climbed up there this evening I rattled the ladder a little and 2 Barn Owls flew out of the cavity! And when I got up there the cavity was totally free of combs and there were also two fresh pellets. So they’re BACK!!!

Now I have to focus on why the cavity, and other cams, aren’t working. Uh, as it’s been said – it’s always something… But I’m on it. Stay tuned. And thanks for your patience. Pete

03/17/24 I’m REALLY sorry about the cam problems, especially the cavity cam. Right now I have been unable to successfully trouble shoot it and with the bee combs still there, along with a few bees, it’s difficult for me to safely get up there to inspect the connections. I’m also still waiting for the OC Beekeepers to schedule a time to come out to remove the combs. So, again, I’m sorry and hope you will bear with me. Thanks, Pete

03/15/24 Our power went out this morning around 8AM PST so cams are down. SC Edison is saying that it should be back on around 12:30PM PST. Also, I’m still waiting to get an appointment with the OC Beekeepers to have them remove the combs. Pete

02/26/24 I reached out again to the OC Beekeepers Association and my thought now is to have one of their people experienced in working with honey bees and being up in a tree come out to to safely remove the abandoned combs and also deal properly with the remaining “scavenger” bees that are still coming and going. So stay tuned… Pete

02/22/24 I went up to the cavity today anticipating I’d be able to remove the abandoned honeybee combs,  And while bees were coming and going and didn’t seem to mind me, there where 50-75 of them on the comb.  So I decided not to chance it and will be back in touch with the pros from OC Beekeepers to see if it still would be safe for me to remove the combs.

BTW, from what I saw the combs are not as huge as they look on the cam.  But they’re certainly big enough to keep the BNOWs from using the cavity.  Any case, I will continue to try to deal with this.  Pete

01/17/24 I talk to a professional bee keeper today and she confirmed that the hive/combs has/have been abandoned. So I’ll be going up there shortly to remove the combs and also clean the cam lens. And, hopefully, get the limb cam – as well as the trail cam – working again. Thanks for your patience and understanding. Pete

10/23/23 Here’s the link to Carl Safina’s and Kevin McGowan’s Cornell talk on owls with a focus on Carl’s new book “Alfie and Me”. I hope it works… Pete

Keynotes

 

10/09/23 Hey gang, sorry for the late notice! My good buddy of over 40 years and well know scientist and author, Carl Safina, will be giving a web talk tomorrow with Kevin McGowan at 10AM PST via Cornell University’s website about OWLS (details below). I thought y’all might be interested so immediately below is the link if you want to register and join in.  Pete

Keynotes

APEX PREDATOR – OWLS AND HUMANS IN A SHARED ENVIRONMENT

Owls are fascinating and elusive birds — masterful hunters and age-old symbols of wisdom and knowledge. While their acute senses and physical adaptations help them survive and succeed in nature, owls have a curious charisma and surprising social skills when closely observed.
Join owl expert Kevin J. McGowan from Cornell’s Lab of Ornithology and ecologist Carl Safina, author of Alfie and Me: What Owls Know, What Humans Believe, for an in-depth look into the complex lives of owls and how humans might live among them in harmony and with respect.

10/03/23 After almost a month of SoCal Edison replacing our power poles and conductors with more fire resistant gear and having our electricity go off and on multiple times during this effort I think we’re now back up and should, hopefully, have uninterrupted service going forward. So I’ve reconfigged and updated the Cavity and Bat cams and they should be live. Next is to try to get the Limb and Trail cams back up… Thanks for your patience. Pete

9/28/23 We’ve been running on a generator for the last 8-9 days and will be until 10/2/23. But about a half hour ago it shut down due to a malfunction and I’m currently waiting for a replacement. So the cams will be down due to this wait. And when we’re powered back up again I can try to reset the cams. However, we’re due to have normal power turned back on 10/2/23 so the cams will go down again during that switch over and I’ll have to reconfigure them once more at that time. Thanks, Pete

9/22/23 I saw a comment or two about the beehive – like wondering how big the cavity is and if the hive is hanging outside it and may fall. The cavity is huge.  For example, when I’ve been up there and reached to the back of it from the lip I can’t touch it.  So the cavity floor is a good 24″ in diameter along with the “pantry” that has a lot of space to the left.  Also, a good portion of the euc above the cavity is hollow.  Recall we’ve seen more than on chick “disappear” up there from time to time.  The hive is also totally inside the cavity as far as I can tell. Not the greatest pic, but I think one can see there doesn’t appear to be any part of it sticking out.  Pete P.S. I just noticed possomtrot’s question about size of cavity opening and the hive. I estimate that the opening is about 24″ tall and at least 18″ wide and the hive is currently filling all of that.

9/18/23 OK, we’re now running the entire south end of our HQ on a SC Edison generator. It’s quiet and working great. So should be like this for a couple of weeks and then we’ll be put back on the grid and should, hopefully, have no power interruptions again. In meantime I was able to recreate the Bat Cam stream but am having problems doing the same with the Cavity (aka BeeHive) stream. Can’t seem to get the Alibi digitizer to reload the stream. But have contacted Jorge who is quite good at figuring out how to fix stuff like this. Sorry about this current mess, but I’m pedaling as fast as I can… Pete

9/8/23 I’m sorry about all these cam issues, but they’ll likely continue until after SCEdison finishes redoing all our electric power infrastructure. And this is going to be going on into early October. For now the Bat Cam seems to be working and I’m working with Jorge to try to fix the Cavity Cam feed. And, alas, when our power was turned back on again yesterday afternoon the Limb Cam didn’t restart. Sigh. It’s always something… Pete

9/1/23 I have no idea why this happened, but when SoCal Edison turned our power back on late yesterday the Limb cam started working!  Now I have to get into YouTube and create new URLs for the Cavity and Bat cams to get them running again.  But I don’t know why the Trail cam is still down.  Pete

8/31/23 Starr Ranch electricity comes via a 12K volt line about a mile long and over a lot of open space. In an effort to prevent the poles and wires from causing a fire, SoCal Edison just began replacing our 13+ poles with ones made from a composite that doesn’t burn (and is also Acorn Woodpecker proof…). They’ll also be replacing the conductors with ones that are insulated. Part of this means that our power will be intermittently out, the first day being today, and at some point will be out for a week or so. During this longer period they will provide generators, but it still may be difficult for me to keep the cams going. This project is scheduled to take most of September. So if the cams are down, this is almost certainly why. Thanks, Pete

8/22/23 A couple of things:

1) Hillary didn’t really affect Starr Ranch much at all. The winds never got bad, though we did get 2.53″ of rain. That amount of rain was not a problem infrastructure-wise, but may have implications for Sandy’s habitat restoration. Basically, and as all of us SoCal folks know, we NEVER get rain in August. The rainy season at Starr Ranch is usually October through April. But this recent rainfall has a good chance of giving the invasive weeds that Sandy keeps getting rid of a “jump start” on growing, making the field season that much longer.

2) I saw some suggestions about getting a “watering hole” set up with a cam like I’ve done in the past, and I’m happy to do that. However, there still is quite a bit of water in Bell Creek so most of the wildlife goes there for a drink. But once things start really drying up, I will set up something.

BTW, Our FY24 budget season has started and Sandy and I are trying to raise some bucks to keep the wheels on Starr Ranch, especially the habitat restoration that requires 4 seasonal field assistants. So any donations would really be appreciated.

Thanks,
Pete

6/21/23 Regarding the Honey Bees (I also posted this as a reply to the thread below). Thanks, Pete

Thanks for the heads up, Paddy.

To All,

This same thing happened before at this cavity right around the time the chicks had fledged. Honey Bees built a hive in there, but soon after abandoned it. I eventually cleaned it out, but once they’ve been there I suspect that there are some residual smells, pheromones, etc. that may draw them back again. What just happened seems to be case in point.

I was hoping to get up there after the BNOWs fledged to try to figure out why the limb cam isn’t working and fix it and also change the cavity cam. But if the bees take up residence, I don’t see how that will be possible.

So I guess we’re now in a “wait and see” mode. Though I can say now that if the Honey Bees stay, they’ll be what we might be able to watch. I won’t take any steps to remove them. Long ago I tried to make it known that we’re just getting to watch a natural situation unfold. If BNOW’s, American Kestrels, Honey Bees, or anything else establishes a home or roost there, so be it.

I decided on this approach after the male stop returning with much needed prey several years ago. The 4 (as I recall) chicks were too small for the female to leave and hunt. He was later found dead by the field crew here about 1.5 miles north of the cavity in a grassland. I took him to the OC Bird of Prey Center, but Dr. Scott Weldy told me he was too far gone to determine a CoD. However, by his band I knew he was at least 10 yrs old and I think the current longevity record for wild BNOWs is still 15 yrs old. So maybe it was old age… Anyway, after 3 days of no male returning with prey the chicks were clearly starving. So I bought a hundred frozen rats and was throwing them in the cavity every night for several weeks.

All the chicks eventually fledged, but I likely doomed at least some of them because, as you know, the adults continue feeding them for up to two months post fledging. Without the male around to help out some of them almost certainly starved to death. So I told myself I would never set them up like that again or interfere with whatever natural situation unfolds at this site. I hope that you understand.

2/21/23 Gretchen needs to change our web host. She said that this should be seamless, but in case the page is down it should be back up in a day or two. Thanks, Pete

2/17/23 The power will be out for most of the day at Starr Ranch because SC Edison needs to do some maintenance on the lines. So cams will be down. I’m hoping that by 4pm PST I’ll be able to get them running again. The Cavity and Bat cams, that is. I still haven’t figured out what’s wrong with the Trail and Limb cams. Thanks. Pete

1/23/23 I have been working with Jorge to try to fix all the cams. But the problems are a little bit baffling. I still don’t know why the Trail and the Limb cam aren’t working and Jorge recently identified a failed hard drive in the PC that powers the Cavity and Bat cams. So I’m trying to deal with all this but the fixes haven’t been straight forward. Sigh… Pete

8/22/22 Hey y’all, I’m really sorry about all the cam probs and will try to fix them ASAP. Was taking a little vacay last week but now am back in the saddle. Any case, I think the Cavity and Bat cam are now back up after a little switcher meltdown that I luckily was able to quickly fix. But the Trail and Limb cams are still frustrating me about why they aren’t working. Nonetheless will try to focus more on fixing them tomorrow. Thanks again for your patience. Pete

8/8/22 Trail and Limb cam update.  I’m having a lot of trouble trying to isolate why these cams aren’t working again.  Typically, when we have a power outage they automatically come back online when power is restored.  But this time it didn’t happen and I have yet to figure out why not.  I will keep trying and appreciate your patience.  BTW, being so darn hot here these days just adds to my frustration… Thanks, Pete

8/6/22 OK, the Cavity AND Bat cams should now both be back up, though I still need to troubleshoot the Nest Cams that are on the Limb and Trail. I’m quite sure I’ll figure them out, but for now that they didn’t automatically come back after our power was restored baffles me.  Stay tuned… Thanks, Pete

8/4/22 Tomorrow, Friday August 5, SCEdison will be cutting off our power to do some maintenance. This will likely be between 9AM and 3PM PST, so the cams will be off. When power is restored it will take me a bit to recreate the YouTube Cavity and Bat cam URLS and restore them to the page. Thanks.
Pete

3/4/22 I cleaned the bat cam lens today so hopefully you now have a clearer view of the box. Am also looking into buying a new cavity cam that has a built in mic so I can replace the current cam and not have to deal with a separate mic. So stay tuned. In meantime pls know I’m peddling as fast as I can… Thanks. Pete

1/28/22 I’m really sorry, folks. I’m just having a lot of trouble getting the cavity cam to show again on the page. Jorge and I are in touch so hopefully will be able to figure out soon. Pete

1/27/22 Sorry, but I’m having trouble getting the Cavity and Batbox cam YouTube feeds restarted after our power was restored around 4:30PM PST today. I just contacted Jorge who I know will be able to bail me out of this mess as he always has… In the meantime, thanks for your patience. Pete

1/27/22 Cams will be down for most of today as SC Edison replaces a power pole. Should be back up again around 5PM PST. Pete

12/09/21 We have been part of the CA Mountain Lion Project for a very long time with many cougars having been GPS collared at Starr Ranch and, as of last count, at least 5 using Starr Ranch’s Bell Canyon as a major movement corridor. Recently, The CMLP partnered with FLOAT to try to raise a few bucks via T-shirt sales. So if interested, visit: https://float.org/collections/california-mountain-lion-project. Thanks, Pete

11/28/21 Cavity cam should be back up. Sorry for the delay. As usual, Jorge helped walk me though the process once again… Only thing left to do is try to figure out why the Cavity and Bat cams don’t auto play when you load the page. Pete

11/26/21 Our power is back on as of 11AM PST and I was able to recreate the YouTube stream for the Bat Cam and get it back up. But am having trouble with the Cavity Cam. May turn out to be a cam hardware problem. Any case, I’ll attack this problem early next week. Will be a lot of cleaning up of wiring and connections, which I hope are the easy fixes to the current problem as well as the flaky audio and interference often seen on the video. Never a dull moment… Pete

11/25/21 Cams are down due to high winds staring last night and SCEdison cut our power for fire/safety reasons (There’s a 12KV power line that provides us our electricity running over almost a mile of dry grass and coastal sage scrub – so we get it…) Any case, winds are supposed to be calm again by tomorrow AM (Friday). If so, and and as soon as we get our electricity back, I’ll relaunch the cams. Pete

11/12/21 Thanks to some tips from scylla and Jorge – and me finally realizing that I had copied the wrong link, DOH!!! – all 4 cams should be up again. Sorry for the delay. Pete

11/11/21 Still having problems getting new YouTube feeds going for the Cavity and Bat cams. At least Firefox doesn’t like it although it was just a cut and paste of a new URL over an old one. Pete

11/10/21 I’m having trouble relaunching the Cavity and Bat Box streams. I’ve contacted Jorge, who as we all know is a whiz at this. So I suspect he’ll get them back up ASAP. Pete

11/9/21 SC Edison has to do a pole repair at Starr Ranch so our power will be down today from about 11AM thru 3PM PST. All cams will be off during this time. Also, it may take me a while to get two of the feeds back up that use YouTube streaming once the power comes back on. They’ll need new URLs. Thanks, Pete

8/12/21 I just took the HOFI cam offline and will put it back up if/when the HOFI’s return next spring. Chances are high that they will. Pete

5/11/21 I just took the Trail Cam offline and replaced it with a House Finch cam for now. I just noticed today that the HOFI’s had a nest at our office and, as luck would have it, the cam from last season was already in place. However, I’ll still monitor the trail cam and post vids when something interesting walks by. Like Earlier this Morning…

3/16/21 Interesting that the male has been a no-show for a while. Could be something happened to him, but also could be that he’s getting in the “mode” of roosting outside the cavity as he eventually has in the past as chicks start hatching and it starts to get a little crowded in the cavity. However, it seems a bit early for that. Any case, let’s just see how things unfold. Pete

3/14/21 Hmmmm, 32 days since first egg laid? First hatch should be soon…

In meantime, for those who sent me their t-shirt info as part of your egg pledge I need a little more time than anticipated to send them to you. I’m reluctant to go to the post office due to this covid mess. However, I’m fully set up at the ranch to weigh and print correct postage. The down side is that the USPS is getting pickier about what they’ll allow to be left at our mailbox for pickup. They’ve twice returned a t-shirt to Wynne that had the correct postage. It was because it was “bulky” that they didn’t accept it (?!). And this was not done by our really great mail carrier, Tim. It had gone through the system after he picked it up so he was compelled to return it. Any case, I ask for your patience. You’ll eventually get your t-shirt. Thanks. Pete

3/3/21
Thank you EVERYONE who donated to the 2021 Egg Pledge! This means A LOT to Sandy and me and really helps Starr Ranch. And also to PLowrie who kept this all organized so well!

For those who donated $5 or more, this is the T-shirt link for you to go to so you can provide the info I need to send you a Starr Ranch T-shirt. It uses the “old” Starr Ranch website look so there might be some bad links in the right side bar. But the form should work fine.

Note: I have plenty of T-shirts except that I’m out of Short Sleeve Adult Medium.  Sizes tend to run large so, if you think you’re a medium, a small would probably work.  Pete

2/24/21 Latest egg dates:
#1 – 2/12/21 – 9:13 am
#2 – 2/14/21 – 12:39 pm
#3 – 2/16/21 – 5:52 pm
#4 – 2/18/21 – 9:38 pm
#5 – 2/21/21 – 2:03 am
#6 – 2/23/21 – 11:40 am
Pete

2/21/21 Thanks to all who are pledging a donation/egg or contribute to Starr Ranch in other ways! Given that Sandy and I have to raise a few hundred thousand dollars every year to keep the wheels on Starr Ranch, this all helps! Eggs laid as of today:
#1 – 2/12/21 – 9:13 am
#2 – 2/14/21 – 12:39 pm
#3 – 2/16/21 – 5:52 pm
#4 – 2/18/21 – 9:38 pm
#5 – 2/21/21 – 2:03 am
Pete

2/16/21 The Cavity and Bat Cams should now automatically play when you load the page. Jorge discovered that even if the code included the autoplay command, they wouldn’t because YouTube was reluctant to have embedded video that might have mic/audio suddenly start playing upon loading a page and blast the user with unexpected sound. So he found the code to have these two videos load with the sound defaulted to mute. Which is a non-issue because neither of these feeds has audio… Thanks, Jorge! Pete

2/7/21 Gretchen told me that the plugin that allows one to add a pic to a comment is no longer supported. So she’s looking for another one. Pete

2/6/21 The Limb cam is now running and also has an active mic in the vicinity of the cavity. But two things:
1) If you want to hear the audio make sure the mic (speaker icon) is clicked to “on” in (usually) the lower or upper right corner of the Limb cam feed.
2)There’s a longer delay before you see/hear the live Limb cam feed than the Cavity cam feed. So while you might hear audio from the Limb cam mic it likely won’t sync with the Cavity cam activity. Pete

2/1/21 This is part of the nuts and bolts needed to keep the cams going. But it’s fun for me. Love doing it. Just wish there weren’t so many tech glitches to deal with. Then again, that’s just part of the deal. Pete

1/30/21 I started working on replacing the PTZ cam today. But among other things, mice have chewed a bunch of wires so I have a lot of repairs to do and may have to pull new wires. So this may take some time. But I’m hoping that if not by tomorrow, maybe Monday things will be back to “normal” again. (But is there any such thing a “normal” any more…?) Pete

1/29/21 Trail cam change is done. Pete

1/29/21 I’m about to change the trail cam to a better, hopefully higher resolution, model so it may be down for a while. Also, when things dry out here a bit, tomorrow I’m going to go up to the cavity after dark and after the pair has left and install a static cam in place of the PTZ to view the limb activity. It will also have a mic so it should be able to pick up audio in the cavity as well. Pete

1/29/21 All – Please don’t put your email address in a comment. It’s way too easy for a bot to grab it and then start using it to spam you. If you want to get in touch with another viewer just send an email to me and I’ll email that person asking if it’s OK for me to share their email with you. I’m happy to do this. Pete

1/21/21 I’ve emailed Jorge about the constant cavity cam buffering. Will fix as soon as I hear from him. In meantime I removed the 360X270 cavity stream. Was redundant anyway and just wasting bandwidth. Pete